Which is faster up Doi Suthep? R1 or WR450 SM?

KTMphil

KTMphil

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Jan 11, 2011
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Chiang Mai, Thailand
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2007 KTM 990 Adventure Suzuki DRZ 400
Which is faster up Doi Suthep? Yamaha R1 or Yamaha WR450 SM?

Had an interesting discussion with R1 Peter the other night, who used race Yamaha R1's in the suberbike class.


He often used to ride his R1 up Doi Suthep mountain at 5pm to blow off some steam and was astonished when i said that a tricked out Yamaha WR 450 super moto, might be faster.

DST race track.jpg

The road to a sensible point is about 10km, lots of tight corners where the R1's extra power wont' be useable. We contacted Mr. Stokes (Stokes 70), who knows superbikes & supermoto bikes better than most & his opinion is that the Yamaha R1 would be quicker up the mountain BUT the Yamaha WR 450 SM would be faster down, indicating that the R1's power would be an advantage going up.



Amazing how far these supermotos can be pushed now , check out the video below
[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/TqKShV-iN5M[/VIDEO]


[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/nZ-619_slfs[/VIDEO]
 
Agree it would be close.. But another factor is which is 'easier' to be quick..

I think I could well be quicker on an SM than I would on a sportbike, as I find it easier to hoon the SM and its more forgiving.. The sportbike may potentially be quicker, but the limits are less workable with the skills I have, so I stay further from them. More power sure, but more weight to transfer requiring better line selection and much more consequence for being off, etc.

I know if I take the blade to Pai or DMS etc.. It feels like much more work than the same on the SM.
 
... don't forget the road is not a racing track, loads of crap and holes and bumps. So you can't always stay on the perfect lines. I would say the SM for those reasons.
 
MastaMax said:
... don't forget the road is not a racing track, loads of crap and holes and bumps. So you can't always stay on the perfect lines. I would say the SM for those reasons.
Click to expand...


I'm with you max - I think a pimped out Yamaha WR 450 R would win easy.
 
Dirty, oily, bumpy pavement, passing and avoiding cars and vans, tight turns? The WR would smoke the R1. Consider a rider who isn't in the top 99.999% of racers and it's even more certain.

Kind of related:
[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/c1d_6sKdyKM[/VIDEO]
 
Some awesome super motard drift control footage in this video, which helps to illustrate why they are so quick when there's tight corners
[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/CKhieh4QAWA[/VIDEO]
 
I have never ridden the road in question but it would be an interesting comparison to ride that road on both a WR450 SM and a liter bike like my racing Blade.
I have both the above bikes and I use them around my location in Thailand which unfortunately does not have the hair pins that the map shows. But I always FEEL faster on my Blade.
I think to know the real answer; you would need the same rider to ride the road on both bikes and see the time it takes.

Corner speed is based on three sections of the corner, entry, apex and exit acceleration. Physics dictate that a lighter bike can brake later so there is a perceived immediate advantage to some. The real reason a lighter bike brakes later is because its top speed at the braking point is much slower than a liter bike.

The liter bike brakes earlier but moves into the corner at the same speed as the SM would enter because it is carrying more speed as it slows; therefore the speed at the apex is almost the same with the liter racing bike and the 450 SM.

There may be a smidgen of advantage for the SM but it would not be noticeable. The exit speed is far and away the liter bikes main advantage.

On a tight circuit or road the liter bike would only use 1st gear if there are no straights and never out of 2nd if the straight was less than 200 meters. The SM would be using all 5 gears.

I would say that if there is a couple of hundred meters between hair pin bends the bikes would be very close but the liter bike will pull away. It would be harder work but it is more than doable.

Look at the speed the MotoGP bike go through the chicane at Assen. A SM would not be faster and proably slower due to the bikes higher Cof G and suspension limitations.
The SM would brake later and possibly gain a little ground but i doubt it; the liter bike would pull it all back and more in the exit and short straight.

Not to have seen or ridden the road makes it hard to judge.

An example of how a tight track slows a liter bike is that Thailand circuit is 2.5 kilometers in length. There is a circuit in Australia that is 2.48 in length. I note from posts on this forum that a good time for the liter superbikes is around 80 seconds at the Thailand circuit.

The Australian circuit takes just on 54 seconds. This shows clearly that a tight circuit slows the liter bikes down.
The SM would probably do 80 seconds + also at the Thailand circuit but I can bet you the SM would struggle to be faster than 70 seconds on the Australian circuit.

I regularly encounter fast SM riders at track days at the 3.8 kilometer circuit in Malaysia. That circuit has a 5th gear straight but the remainder is a tight and technical circuit with a very tight chicane. A good lap there is 98 seconds. The SM takes about 110 seconds

I can lap that circuit around 9 seconds a lap faster than the quickest SM’s.
 
again it's not a circuit, the bad road conditions will in my opinion make the difference in favor of the SM.
 
This is why these things are so much fun, if you haven't tried it ...............

[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/GDbWSkTwJdk[/VIDEO]
 
If the road is in shitty condition as described above by MM, such as bumpy, pot holed and slippery the SM will reign even on the straights. Who is going to use a liter bikes power on roads in that conditon?

Are there any on bike videos of that road posted?
 
The road isnt that bad.. its not track but its not rural mountain either..

I dont think the WR would 'smoke' it.. I think with a really good rider, the sportbike would win, with normal riders its equal and with riders not happy to be drifting or right on the edge.. Then the WR is clearly easier to get up there at pace.

As much as I love my motards.. An R1 or other literbike just leaps for the horizon in a different way, theres enough short leaps that if someones got good lines and keeps the corner speed up its going to haul ass in the short open patches. I think theres a lot of stretches where the WR would be flat out accelerating and each one of those the R1 canes it.

Would be great to get 2 good riders on 2 good bikes and have a grudge match. Its a good question for that bit of Rd.
 
The litre bike would win by a mile, given a competent rider on it, anyone can ride a supermoto they are light, flickable and compared to a 1000 " slow" put a decent rider on a 1000 up doi sutthep and it wouldnt be close.
For a starters the long straight that passes the waterfall, the 1000cc bike would easily gain 10-15secs on this straight alone, every uphill slight straight and the 1000 will pull such a margin that even if the supermoto is slightly quicker in the corners it still will not be able to make up for the lost time on the straights.

1000cc bikes are not as slow as most people think in the corners, take hang dong speedway for example, the quickest lap times by a 1000 are about 25-26secs, not bad considering that 250cc mio's lap about the same time.

It should be noted that I said " competent rider" a inexperienced or useless rider and the 1000 would be far too much bike to handle and they be indeed be quicker on a 450 motard bike.
 
Seems the critical thing here is that the 1,000 cc bike has to be in the hands of someone that can use its potential.


Stokes70 said:
The litre bike would win by a mile, given a competent rider on it, anyone can ride a supermoto they are light, flickable and compared to a 1000 " slow" put a decent rider on a 1000 up doi sutthep and it wouldnt be close.
For a starters the long straight that passes the waterfall, the 1000cc bike would easily gain 10-15secs on this straight alone, every uphill slight straight and the 1000 will pull such a margin that even if the supermoto is slightly quicker in the corners it still will not be able to make up for the lost time on the straights.

1000cc bikes are not as slow as most people think in the corners, take hang dong speedway for example, the quickest lap times by a 1000 are about 25-26secs, not bad considering that 250cc mio's lap about the same time.

It should be noted that I said " competent rider" a inexperienced or useless rider and the 1000 would be far too much bike to handle and they be indeed be quicker on a 450 motard bike.
Click to expand...
 
Howdy. :DD

A point to ponder concerning the question in the topic; Below are motorcycle results of the 2011 Pikes Peak race.

[pre:1d7sqwzg]1205 Motorcycle -Was just watching Carlin's record run on his Ducati,

Pos. Driver Finish Time
1 Carlin Dunne 5 11:11.329
2 Jeff Grace 97 12:02.510
3 Alexander Smith 55 12:12.920
4 Glenn Cox 13 12:15.000
5 Jeff Jensen 500 13:06.000

450 Motorcycle
Pos. Driver Finish Time
1 Davey Durelle 58 11:50.988
2 Joe Prussiano 421 12:11.046
3 Travis Newbold 747 12:19.445
4 Tom McCarthy 26 02: 12:35.584
5 Mark Woodward 66 12:38.374

Supermoto 450
Pos. Driver Finish Time
1 Leeland Sinclair521 12:05.178
2 Greg Chicoine 100 12:05.527
3 Craig Gleason 96 12:14.628
4 Geoff Cesmat 85 12:28.030
5 Alessandro Scalabrin770 12:33.862

250 Motorcycle - interesting, to me, are the 250 dirt bike results, the last time I spectated (95)
a 250RM 2 stroke finished a little over 90 seconds behind the fastest unlimited category car
that year. And that was the bike I had at home then (sweet).

Pos. Driver Finish Time
1 Chuck Lee 56 12:39.366
2 Zach Warnock 107 12:43.072
3 Codie Vahsholtz285 12:51.183
4 Randy Belisle 33 12:54.669
5 Scott Warner232 13:21.449[/pre:1d7sqwzg]

Will be interesting what bigger bikes will take part next year as the hill will be completely paved by June 2012. Maybe next year a 450 moto will top the 450MX?

Excuse the formatting...

Cheers!!
 
Hi Fishenough

:RO

Great duck breaking ice shattering post there.

Forgive my ignorance but where is the pikes peak race held ?

Ally
(fed up with the rain)
 
Great post information kevin, coming in with guns a-blazin! - Great to see you here.

Interesting to see the best 450cc supermoto riders 3 minutes slower than the best sports bike riders, confirming what people are saying earlier on.


Fishenough said:
Howdy. :DD

A point to ponder concerning the question in the topic; Below are motorcycle results of the 2011 Pikes Peak race.

[pre:3fq1ogp1]1205 Motorcycle -Was just watching Carlin's record run on his Ducati,

Pos. Driver Finish Time
1 Carlin Dunne 5 11:11.329
2 Jeff Grace 97 12:02.510
3 Alexander Smith 55 12:12.920
4 Glenn Cox 13 12:15.000
5 Jeff Jensen 500 13:06.000

450 Motorcycle
Pos. Driver Finish Time
1 Davey Durelle 58 11:50.988
2 Joe Prussiano 421 12:11.046
3 Travis Newbold 747 12:19.445
4 Tom McCarthy 26 02: 12:35.584
5 Mark Woodward 66 12:38.374

Supermoto 450
Pos. Driver Finish Time
1 Leeland Sinclair521 12:05.178
2 Greg Chicoine 100 12:05.527
3 Craig Gleason 96 12:14.628
4 Geoff Cesmat 85 12:28.030
5 Alessandro Scalabrin770 12:33.862

250 Motorcycle - interesting, to me, are the 250 dirt bike results, the last time I spectated (95)
a 250RM 2 stroke finished a little over 90 seconds behind the fastest unlimited category car
that year. And that was the bike I had at home then (sweet).

Pos. Driver Finish Time
1 Chuck Lee 56 12:39.366
2 Zach Warnock 107 12:43.072
3 Codie Vahsholtz285 12:51.183
4 Randy Belisle 33 12:54.669
5 Scott Warner232 13:21.449[/pre:3fq1ogp1]

Will be interesting what bigger bikes will take part next year as the hill will be completely paved by June 2012. Maybe next year a 450 moto will top the 450MX?

Excuse the formatting...

Cheers!!
Click to expand...
 
This months bike mag has a similar test with a pushbike v an R1 downhill on a mega twisty mountain Rd.
 
Great info there Phil & now I see the links too, thanks very much.

Some interesting hill climb & track riding to be seen there.

If there wasn't a temple on every mountain, perhaps TAT would bite your (collective bikers) hands off to run an organised event like the pike peaks here in Thailand.

But maybe that already exists somewhere and I am unaware.

:DD

Ally
 
Doi Ang Khan?

Ally said:
Great info there Phil & now I see the links too, thanks very much.

Some interesting hill climb & track riding to be seen there.

If there wasn't a temple on every mountain, perhaps TAT would bite your (collective bikers) hands off to run an organised event like the pike peaks here in Thailand.

But maybe that already exists somewhere and I am unaware.

:DD

Ally
Click to expand...
 
Here's a clip to give you some idea of the road conditions- the first half
I dont have an R1 or a WR450, so I went on my KLX250 EFI

[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TiHN-7KADE[/VIDEO]
 
I enjoyed watching that Alex and am really looking forward to getting my KLX
 
Some interesting fighting talk last night on this subject.


Looks like there might be a Honda Fireblade CBR 1000 v's a Yamaha WR450F in motard trim, face-off coming soon, maybe with bets on the result going to charity.

Watch this space.
 
How about a KTM 300 Super Motard?!

Stick a 40 rear sprocket on the back and away you go.
 
interesting topic.
when i first started out my road racing career in D grade i was racing a lot against a young 17 yr old kid on a Honda CR 500 ("chook chaser" as they were known) 2 stroke.
it had slicks and lowered suspension and some engine mods. on the tighter and lower top speed tracks around our area he was unbeatable on the thing until he got to A grade and up against the best in the land where he would run 2nd and 3rd against local 1000cc superbikes. he ended up a 6 time national superbike champ on Ducatis,Yams and suzukis,so he knew how to ride even as a teenager.
it had a higher cornering speed and was very light so later braking too and not much of a hp disadvantage on some relatively tight and flat tracks.
that bike would have a lot more power and torque than a 450 4 stroke single.

edit; should also add that his theory (i wouldn`t argue with him he was a truly gifted,very fast rider) that on those type of bikes you should always keep your feet up on the pegs (corner apex) as when you took them off you unbalanced the bike and slowed it down.

my opinion is that with riders with equal ability,or the same rider riding both bikes on a timed run,the R1 would just have too much torque out of the corners and beat the 450 single hands down in the relatively short straight sections out of the corners where as the single would have higher cornering and entry speed.
that stretch of road is fairly smooth too just usually a lot of debris and spillage.

puts the R1 in front in my book. the drag to the first corner would see it in front hands down.it may well be a matter of who is bravest at picking their way through the traffic after that.

random traffic is the unknown though as it is not a closed circuit you will never get a true indication as a good run without hindrance will come out on top IMO.



KTMphil said:
Some interesting fighting talk last night on this subject.


Looks like there might be a Honda Fireblade CBR 1000 v's a Yamaha WR450F in motard trim, face-off coming soon, maybe with bets on the result going to charity.

Watch this space.
Click to expand...

i think racing on that stretch of road would be highly dangerous and a possible mismatch of riding skills and possibly suspension set up and tyre stickiness?

maybe best to do timed runs early one morning when there aren`t too many baht buses around?

better still best to let one person do timed runs on each bike.
 
what's all the Rush? ... take your time and enjoy the view ... viva la Tiger Retro 110 .. wouldn't beat any of the above going up to Doi Suthep.. but it's a freaking hoot coming down again :)
 
Blue88 said:
what's all the Rush? ... take your time and enjoy the view ... viva la Tiger Retro 110 .. wouldn't beat any of the above going up to Doi Suthep.. but it's a freaking hoot coming down again :)
Click to expand...

Interesting to clarify which bike configuration is the fastest in unusual terrain as they're so different, no hurry for most of us, I agree.

Never sent from an I-Phone
 
Kelds video of Darryl going up Doi Suthep on a Suzuki DRZ 400 SM. Darryl's one of the quickest riders in Chiang Mai.



 
KTMphil said:
Kelds video of Darryl going up Doi Suthep on a Suzuki DRZ 400 SM. Darryl's one of the quickest riders in Chiang Mai.


Click to expand...

He's not hanging around and getting some big leans angles. Funny how the GPro makes the handlebars look about a 12" long though. Looks like new tyres since we did that run to Pai a month ago too....
 
LUFC said:
He's not hanging around and getting some big leans angles. Funny how the GPro makes the handlebars look about a 12" long though. Looks like new tyres since we did that run to Pai a month ago too....
Click to expand...

It's a bit deceiving on speed too because of the wide angle (one of the reasons I'm not a fan of these cameras)
To get a better idea of relative speed, just cover the left & right side of the movie with your fingers.
 
I measured the distance twice today.
From stairs of "temple" to start of 2nd viewpoint.
It's 9.5 Km and as I see it on the video he did it in around 6.45 mins, give or take 1 sec.
 
^ What about a 675 Speed Triple,just as good on that road....think i know someone local with one :RE

You`d need the same rider though.
 
Is Darryl riding a stock DRZ?
if not, whats he done to it, and what was his top speed on that run?
 
Trying to find out more..
I looked up suthep and ducati etc on youtube, but my wifi is no good so cant really tell the times
He didnt say hed been up doi sutheo on the ktm200, but talked about an R1-from the zoo
 
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