KLX 250 - 351cc Bill Blue big bore kit

anywhere in CM where to order 305cc kits ?*(in my case for a CRF) tryed a couple of shops .they didn't seem familiar with 'em.
I also know there is shops on line ,but when imported through the mail tax/customs can be anal! one of the last purchases i did, on a $150 value they decided to double the tax and I had to pay 2640B to collect the package (???)
 
Try Nae at the Chiang Mai MX shop - he would know



Forest/Rider said:
anywhere in CM where to order 305cc kits ?*(in my case for a CRF) tryed a couple of shops .they didn't seem familiar with 'em.
I also know there is shops on line ,but when imported through the mail tax/customs can be anal! one of the last purchases i did, on a $150 value they decided to double the tax and I had to pay 2640B to collect the package (???)
Click to expand...
 
One thing I would be concerned about with overbores here, in the vast majority of cases they will be cut from stock or resleeved.. I asked around as I had / have a scuffed YZ250 barrel and it seems in Thailand no one can nikasil coat them again. Every Thai I spoke to told me it wasnt needed and this was just how its done here.. I spoke to Nat and he at least said it should be, but it isnt.

Without that coating I would think your going to have heat and lifespan issues with anything.. Just cutting a rebore isnt enough for a long life solution. Sure it works, for a while.

Thats not the same ordering in a fully done one.. But when dealing with locals who say they can either get big bores made, or rebore the barrel here. Its worth knowing.
 
LivinLos already commented on my FB page but for 9,800 baht engine parts are cheap in LOS so it could work.

Screen Shot 2014-04-24 at 14.17.26.jpg
 
Some interesting video from public Youtube regarding installation and repair of a KLX 351 kit.



[video=youtube_share;92jijbse4DQ]http://youtu.be/92jijbse4DQ[/video]
 
can barely read but i believe this is for a CRF? .could I have more info ,is any 305cc available and where you bought it please?

.
bsacbob said:
LivinLos already commented on my FB page but for 9,800 baht engine parts are cheap in LOS so it could work.

View attachment 28559
Click to expand...
 
'burning shop' .got it .i'll give it a try ,thnx
 
Steel sleeves are fine.

Nikasil,if not badly scored/damaged, can be honed and an over size piston fitted?
 
Loop said:
Nikasil,if not badly scored/damaged, can be honed and an over size piston fitted?
Click to expand...

Every first world shop I spoke to said that after honing they need to be recoated.. Eric Gorr the semi famous 2 stroke tuner was offering to do it to my barrel, and do a custom woods port job.. They have access to the dip and electro system to recoat the ali..

I was even advised against steel resleeves but admit that might just be being picky.
 
Loop said:
Steel sleeves are fine.

Nikasil,if not badly scored/damaged, can be honed and an over size piston fitted?
Click to expand...

Nicasil coatings are usually very thin, in most modern motorcycle applications we are talking around 50 to 100 micrometers, which is pretty much the minimum you would need to hone if you do a proper honing job. If you find a proper plasma spray coater I would suggest replacing the Nicasil for a state of the art CoNiCrAlY (instead of Nickel Aluminum Silicon it is Cobalt Nickel Chrome Aluminum Yttrium coating) which should be the same price as the application is what costs and the material is actually pretty much the same (making the powder from the alloy is the costly process not the alloy itself)...if not possible just go for some hard chroming which does "the same" (almost) job at a fraction of the price.
 
Welcome aboard :applause: and thanks for the tip on the sleeve chroming would never have crossed my mind .....
 
My pleasure Bob...anything to help when I can. BTW...are you the same Bob that got called a wonabe by the resident troll on the clown site? I was going to post an answer to that but got booted before I could...Thanks for the welcome Marcel.
 
Here's what Eric Gorr says...

The standard thickness on OEM cylinders is .002 inch whereas aftermarket platers like US Chrome use .006 inch. That way you can hone is several times before it wears though in areas like the top of the ring travel and around the exhaust port.
The typical life of a stock plated cylinder is about 100 hours or 5 piston changes.
Plating can be layered thicker but too much and it can become brittle.
Good luck

Some more...

 So, depending on how much thickness you have to work with, careful honing is a viable process to restore a factory surface finish. If you cannot determine coating thickness, assume it is thin and treat it as thought it were no more than .002” thick. Due to the thin nature of this coating, boring the cylinder to the next oversize will remove the coating entirely. Under these circumstances, the block or cylinders should be sent to a facility that specializes in re-coating with nickel silicon carbide.
Mahle recommends honing no more than .001” from Nikasil® coated bores and only to restore cylindricity to any wear areas. If wear is greater than .001”, it is advisable to have the coating stripped (in many cases this is a simple electro chemical process and does not require boring) and fresh nickel silicon carbide applied. Check with the supplier of coating material for correct honing stones for this process. Please note that piston to wall clearance for Nikasil® coated liners and hypereutectic pistons can be as close as .0008” so careful attention to detail is advised.
 
Hi Loop. I think what you propose can become fairly expensive...also the "new" Nikasil you propose (trademark after the original coating - Silicon Carbide in a Nickel matrix) is in my opinion more fragile and less durable in everyday applications as the old all metal Nicasil...if going that route a Cobalt based material would be more durable - if lifespan is something important.

Again, hard chrome plating would certainly do the trick (even though it's not the most environmentally friendly way) and cost a fraction...I assume we are looking at doing it here in SEA correct?
 
bikesncats said:
Hi Loop. I think what you propose can become fairly expensive...also the "new" Nikasil you propose (trademark after the original coating - Silicon Carbide in a Nickel matrix) is in my opinion more fragile and less durable in everyday applications as the old all metal Nicasil...if going that route a Cobalt based material would be more durable - if lifespan is something important.

Again, hard chrome plating would certainly do the trick (even though it's not the most environmentally friendly way) and cost a fraction...I assume we are looking at doing it here in SEA correct?
Click to expand...

Like this guy already :)

Got real bikes and technical knowledge !
 
bikesncats said:
Hi Loop. I think what you propose can become fairly expensive...also the "new" Nikasil you propose (trademark after the original coating - Silicon Carbide in a Nickel matrix) is in my opinion more fragile and less durable in everyday applications as the old all metal Nicasil...if going that route a Cobalt based material would be more durable - if lifespan is something important.

Again, hard chrome plating would certainly do the trick (even though it's not the most environmentally friendly way) and cost a fraction...I assume we are looking at doing it here in SEA correct?
Click to expand...


My knowledge is fairly old but thanks for the input as i like to keep on top of that sort of stuff.
 
bikesncats said:
My pleasure Bob...anything to help when I can. BTW...are you the same Bob that got called a wonabe by the resident troll on the clown site? I was going to post an answer to that but got booted before I could...Thanks for the welcome Marcel.
Click to expand...

Indeed i am :MG
 
thanks, I -ve been there several times ,i actually asked him a while ago ,he didn-t stock any big bore but
pointed at a small red box ,basically a *(made in )thailand version of EJK ,the box modify the injector/unlimited RPM but you don't interact with it.is set up with a computer and cost around 6000B to install. Anyone have experience or info about it ?I think they attempted a Japanese name..Mu-Ta-KI or something.He says the bike will be comparable to 300cc (although is cheap and i 'm considerating trying it.. I have mixed feelings about it 8-) )


bsacbob said:
Link if you need https://www.facebook.com/pages/BNS-speed/266349363497162?ref=ts&fref=ts the owner speaks very good English, great place for CRF bits and bats

And also this lady who works for the shop.

https://www.facebook.com/tigy.tiger.9?fref=ts
Click to expand...
 
If you like to go into the technical details you may look at it this way...a carbide, be it Silicon carbide or Boron carbide is extremely hard (Boron carbide is the second hardest material known after Diamond) the problem with these materials is that they are extremely brittle as well which makes them fragile even when in a metallic matrix. In addition, carbides are very heat sensitive, it takes a lot of heat under a lot of pressure to form them...if reheated without the high pressure they decompose pretty fast (like that Silicon carbide sand paper or cutting disk that got hot and disintegrated when you were sanding at high speeds - as we all did pretty much every time we sand and cut LOL)...

When you use a metallic alloy with a high Ni (Nickel) and Al (Aluminum) content these two materials form what is know as an intermetallic - it is basically a new material and a also new category of materials with some of the most different and amazing properties (i.e. shape memory metal is the intermetallic TiNi - Titanium Nickelide ... Titanium Aluminide is as strong as Titanium but as light as Aluminum and Nickel Aluminide is nearly as tough as ceramics and carbides but very closely ductile like metals) sorry for the side tracking - so the best matrix of course is a material with a fairly low coefficient of expansion and a high hardness to ensure machinability of the coating, which makes Cobalt the best suitable "host"...chromium is added to improve ductility and Yttrium is basically a stabilizer of the alloy when working at higher temperatures...and lets face it, we all have overheated our engines at some point, sometimes more then we like to admit.
 
Alex - your knowledge on this subject is outstanding, is it something you are involved in for work?



bikesncats said:
If you like to go into the technical details you may look at it this way...a carbide, be it Silicon carbide or Boron carbide is extremely hard (Boron carbide is the second hardest material known after Diamond) the problem with these materials is that they are extremely brittle as well which makes them fragile even when in a metallic matrix. In addition, carbides are very heat sensitive, it takes a lot of heat under a lot of pressure to form them...if reheated without the high pressure they decompose pretty fast (like that Silicon carbide sand paper or cutting disk that got hot and disintegrated when you were sanding at high speeds - as we all did pretty much every time we sand and cut LOL)...

When you use a metallic alloy with a high Ni (Nickel) and Al (Aluminum) content these two materials form what is know as an intermetallic - it is basically a new material and a also new category of materials with some of the most different and amazing properties (i.e. shape memory metal is the intermetallic TiNi - Titanium Nickelide ... Titanium Aluminide is as strong as Titanium but as light as Aluminum and Nickel Aluminide is nearly as tough as ceramics and carbides but very closely ductile like metals) sorry for the side tracking - so the best matrix of course is a material with a fairly low coefficient of expansion and a high hardness to ensure machinability of the coating, which makes Cobalt the best suitable "host"...chromium is added to improve ductility and Yttrium is basically a stabilizer of the alloy when working at higher temperatures...and lets face it, we all have overheated our engines at some point, sometimes more then we like to admit.
Click to expand...
 
Hi Forest Rider...Red Baron in BKK is pretty well equipped when it comes to programming pretty much most aftermarket units but in my experience you have to be there and watch over their shoulder if you want it done to your liking. Good luck with your mods
 
Hi Phil...not anymore but have been for years. Don't want to come across as bragging...so I try to put it as "low-end" as possible - I was quite an environmentalist in my younger days (even considered joining Greenpeace LOL) but it kind of was going against my passion for motorcycling and my need for speed, after some serious soul-searching during my 6 month clean-up trip in the Sahara I came to the realization that we needed new fuels and especially new intermediate technologies.

After I got back I started working for Sulzer (back then Plasma Technik) while going back to school at night - so I started developing materials to increase combustion temperatures to improve efficiency (i.e. working closely with ABB we brought the GT8 gas turbine from barely 23% to 57% efficiency). The more successful coatings we developed the more customers were approaching us and allowing us to learn even more...Alfa Romeo, Fiat Avio, Siemens, Rolls Royce, Porsche, Yamaha, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Mercedes, MAN etc ...these were all customers we helped improve and clean their engines.

I'm not sure how old you are but if you were around in the mid 80s you may recall that famous day Egli broke the 300Km/h barrier for the first time on a street bike. It was Wenger that built the engine, Colani designed the fairing (and to everyone's surprise it couldn't be used - officially because of high side-winds, really though because Colani forgot the tank...yup, no place for gasoline LOL) it presented well at the shows but ran that speed with only a small front fairing. The engine was based on a Kawasaki 900 bottom, with Suzuki's new oil/air cooled cylinders and heads, opened to a whopping 1420cc and with 2 turbo chargers. It was the first time my idea of using Zirconium oxide coatings from a gas turbine engine found a serious application and tuner desperate enough to be the first to try it...it made the engine work (prior to it they were melting pistons and bending valves LOL)...these coatings have since become pretty much standard in the diesel engine industry (and race engines) where the advantage they bring justify the application costs.

From there other materials and new process developments followed but it has been my bread butter for the most of 2 decades...
 
Yeah echo that this sudden info burst is very interesting stuff.

I had a vague idea that when nikasil coatings were done the nickal either wore or burnt out rapidly leaving a silicon carbon / silicon carbide (??) coating.. That the nickel was used more in a way to transfer it there.
 
KTMphil said:
Sounds like you've been involved in some very interesting stuff.
Click to expand...

Quite a bit actually...I think the most interesting was developing the shields and surfaces for the fusion reactors at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (inertial confinement fusion reactor) and Hydro Quebec's Tokamak (Magnetic confinement fusion reactor) and of course the spray forming process for the Rolls Royce's Trent engine burner cans, a real live in production application now, while fusion reactors remain a dream.

...but nothing as interesting as riding :cool:
 
LivinLOS said:
Yeah echo that this sudden info burst is very interesting stuff.

I had a vague idea that when nikasil coatings were done the nickal either wore or burnt out rapidly leaving a silicon carbon / silicon carbide (??) coating.. That the nickel was used more in a way to transfer it there.
Click to expand...

Actually a Carbide coating alone would be cost prohibitive to apply and would not last long as it would be too brittle and would be decomposing rapidly...it has a low thermal conductivity and thus the surface would overheat and decompose to Silicon oxide and carbon...the Nickel is the matrix that allows it to function, a bit like spiking your lamb shoulder with spikes of garlic...without not the same but the garlic alone wouldn't quite work :DD
 
bikesncats said:
I'm not sure how old you are but if you were around in the mid 80s you may recall that famous day Egli broke the 300Km/h barrier for the first time on a street bike. It was Wenger that built the engine, Colani designed the fairing (and to everyone's surprise it couldn't be used - officially because of high side-winds, really though because Colani forgot the tank...yup, no place for gasoline LOL) it presented well at the shows but ran that speed with only a small front fairing. The engine was based on a Kawasaki 900 bottom, with Suzuki's new oil/air cooled cylinders and heads, opened to a whopping 1420cc and with 2 turbo chargers. It was the first time my idea of using Zirconium oxide coatings from a gas turbine engine found a serious application and tuner desperate enough to be the first to try it...it made the engine work (prior to it they were melting pistons and bending valves LOL)...these coatings have since become pretty much standard in the diesel engine industry (and race engines) where the advantage they bring justify the application costs.
Click to expand...

I was around the bike racing scene a fair bit in the 70's and 80's as a rider and the different build of bikes was a bit mind boggling back in those days whereas now it's mainly Kawasaki motor in Kawasaki frame,same for Honda and Ducati etc

Moto2 is an exception.

I'd look in awe at Harris framed Ducati's,Egli (as mentioned),McIntosh Suzukis,TZ 750, 700,500,350 and 250 with specialist made frames and bits and pieces,Bimota concoctions,Elf,to Rob Phyliis's GSX 1000 engine stuffed into a GSX 400 framed Superbike,Moriwaki,Sidecars,to the small Euro make 125 GP bikes etc etc

The days of the backyard frame and bike builder running at or near the front are long gone....unfortunately! not too many small builders with competitive machines around this day and age.
 
thanks mate ,and to all that give suggestions/advice.i appreciated.i drove throu bkk just last week or so on my way back from Cambodia.Didn't make it to red baron.but can give it a try after tomorrow,bkk again on my way (flying) to Nepal..
PS too bad Myanmar makes it difficult (but not impossible for groups) to go through..cause that would be a great ride going that way to India/Nagaland etc.Must be amazing to explore those northern regions :ride: anyone interested in the idea? oct-nov at this point,since the monsoon are round the corner...that would be great..

bikesncats said:
Hi Forest Rider...Red Baron in BKK is pretty well equipped when it comes to programming pretty much most aftermarket units but in my experience you have to be there and watch over their shoulder if you want it done to your liking. Good luck with your mods
Click to expand...
 
Loop said:
I was around the bike racing scene a fair bit in the 70's and 80's as a rider and the different build of bikes was a bit mind boggling back in those days whereas now it's mainly Kawasaki motor in Kawasaki frame,same for Honda and Ducati etc

Moto2 is an exception.

I'd look in awe at Harris framed Ducati's,Egli (as mentioned),McIntosh Suzukis,TZ 750, 700,500,350 and 250 with specialist made frames and bits and pieces,Bimota concoctions,Elf,to Rob Phyliis's GSX 1000 engine stuffed into a GSX 400 framed Superbike,Moriwaki,Sidecars,to the small Euro make 125 GP bikes etc etc

The days of the backyard frame and bike builder running at or near the front are long gone....unfortunately! not too many small builders with competitive machines around this day and age.
Click to expand...

You make me suddenly feel 20 again with all those names...Egli, Moko, Harris, Martin and of course Bimota. Bimota tried to make a clean 2 stroke but didn't work...I made one a few years ago that worked but the cost was prohibitive, and the power unmanageable.

The thing today is that great ideas require solid financial backup...a normal small shop cannot afford to make all the parts with the required materials which nowdays cost a fortune...only factory funds can make these possible so great minds flock to where they can make it happen, Yamaha, Ducati, MV Agusta etc...
 
Last year I spoke for an hour or so with Fritz Egli on the then new Royal Enfield Continental GT and the possibilities for a tuning kit.
He is quite a character and has a huge knowledge on tuning Enfields and other classic bikes.
We started speaking German but soon my Dutch/German failed on me and we continued in English, he speaks it well.
 
Loop...nice video. The Duke engine is one a few new designs that works and has promise. The main issue they face is again, like many others before such a Wankel etc, the seal of what is now a moving component that in the conventional combustion engine remains static, hence easy to seal.

New materials, most derived from the gas turbine industry - I did plenty of coating applications for racing Wankel and similar rotary engines using abrasive coatings from the Pratt&Whittney PT6 turboprop engine - the strong compressive strength pushing the rotative parts into the abrasive coating create serious friction, this is required to ensure a proper seal...and in that it becomes the Achilles heal that costs more efficiency then design allows to gain. The main advantage of course remains the high RPMs the design allows to reach - as you know ultimate power is a function of torque times a constant (mainly based on stroke and friction losses) times your RPMs...essentially to put things simple you could say that HP=Torque x rpm

With a Wankel you have 3 explosions per RPM which again further increases available power...and some Wankels I know of reach as much as 25,000RPM...tremendous amounts of HP (we are talking over 1,000HP with a 2L engine) making them the most powerful output per weight available by far today, but they cost a fortune to operate and reliability (and overall lifespan) is still limited.

The Duke design, although very ingenious, to date seems to have been able to incorporate the downsides of a Wankel with those of the normal internal combustion engine, unfortunately...time will tell.

As far as mine was concerned look at it this way, a turbo makes a four stroke already hard to manage (similar to a high powered 2 stroke), now imagine both power bands added one to the other, an explosive peak of torque which at increasing RPMs just becomes too much to handle...I ripped more tires apart just leaving red lights in the few days I rode it then I did in my entire previous riding life (decades LOL)...truly unmanageable.
 
Egli truly is quite a character...very knowledgeable fella, but like Dr.Gruner (back then my boss) has quite an ego and was quick taking the credit from Wenger for the fastest bike...in the end it was just his frame and very little of his advise was followed as new and radical things were tried.

From the huge inventory in frames he still had back when the GSXR and FZR came out I bet he still has some hanging on racks today. His magnesium forks and wheels were truly ahead of their time though. I built myself an "Egli" back in 85-86 but replaced his frame with a Titanium copy, had his wheels and forks, a GSXR1100 engine modified with Wenger's help to 1400cc putting out 165HP and putting 156Kg onto the scale. Top speed was 260Km/h. I used to ride down to Le Castellet to race it (known as the Paul Ricard Circuit if I recall...) ...and that's where it got stolen - 2 years and 25grand gone :MG
 
The GSX in 1400 form must have been a bit of a handful exiting turns in that era?

Racing a F2 i always had it all over bikes like that into around and exiting turns while they waited to feed the power in i was already full throttle while still leant right over. Luckily that most of the tracks i raced on didn't have long straights as they flew by when they got wound up.

bikesncats said:
Loop...nice video. The Duke engine is one a few new designs that works and has promise. The main issue they face is again, like many others before such a Wankel etc, the seal of what is now a moving component that in the conventional combustion engine remains static, hence easy to seal.

New materials, most derived from the gas turbine industry - I did plenty of coating applications for racing Wankel and similar rotary engines using abrasive coatings from the Pratt&Whittney PT6 turboprop engine - the strong compressive strength pushing the rotative parts into the abrasive coating create serious friction, this is required to ensure a proper seal...and in that it becomes the Achilles heal that costs more efficiency then design allows to gain. The main advantage of course remains the high RPMs the design allows to reach - as you know ultimate power is a function of torque times a constant (mainly based on stroke and friction losses) times your RPMs...essentially to put things simple you could say that HP=Torque x rpm

With a Wankel you have 3 explosions per RPM which again further increases available power...and some Wankels I know of reach as much as 25,000RPM...tremendous amounts of HP (we are talking over 1,000HP with a 2L engine) making them the most powerful output per weight available by far today, but they cost a fortune to operate and reliability (and overall lifespan) is still limited.

The Duke design, although very ingenious, to date seems to have been able to incorporate the downsides of a Wankel with those of the normal internal combustion engine, unfortunately...time will tell.

As far as mine was concerned look at it this way, a turbo makes a four stroke already hard to manage (similar to a high powered 2 stroke), now imagine both power bands added one to the other, an explosive peak of torque which at increasing RPMs just becomes too much to handle...I ripped more tires apart just leaving red lights in the few days I rode it then I did in my entire previous riding life (decades LOL)...truly unmanageable.
Click to expand...


Cheers,thanks for that info.tire shredding power is not much good for anything.
 
BTW...here is that famous Egli that Urs Wenger built and ran 3 world records in one singe day...with my coatings (Plasma Technik sticker on the windshield) that made the engine work. Sorry it took me so long to dig out the pic...AND...the Colani fairing that was truly ahead of it's time (he must have thought that gasoline was already obsolete)

Scan1.jpg
 
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