WR450F Fueling Problem

[johnnysneds]

Near the end of a ride yesterday I began experiencing problems with the bike stuttering. Luckily I had just made it out of the Jungle and onto some tarmac where the bike completely died. It then began to rain heavily (sods law) but I managed to push it a few hundred meters where I found some cover. Let the bike cool for a minute or two and then tried firing her up again. She barked into life instantly and off I went again. Another kilometer down the road and it died again. Now I was in the middle of nowhere and had to push it for a further 2 k/m. (luckily some downhill). I initially thought there might be water in the Carb/Fuel Tank from the jet wash the previous day. I removed the Float Bowl drain plug from under the carb, refitted it and let it fill up. I didn't notice any water from the drained fuel. The biked fired up first time and didn't have any further issues til i stopped. I then noticed the Carb overflow hose venting fuel. This indicated that the Float Needle must be sticking open and closed randomly.
This morning I proceeded to remove the Carb. The Aluminum framed WR's are not as straight forward as the old Steel frame models as you have to move the sub-frame and shock to get at the carb.

Now I didn't have to inspect too far to find what I had suspected, Gasahol Gunk!

This is the inlet side of the Carb. You can clearly see the red gunk at the bottom of the slide. The particles you see is from the dirt on removal.

And the engine side. You can see the gunk build up on the mating face.

Inside the slider chamber. Again gunk, noticeably around where the seal is.

Forgot to take a photo but the float chamber was the same. The needle valve wasn't as bad as I thought but it wasn't what it should have been either.

So thoroughly cleaned the Carb with appropriate cleanser. Here's some photos after its cleaned.

Im off working for 4-5 weeks so ill not bother fitting it until I get back. Im pretty confident this issues is a result of Gasohol residue. It does seem to be reacting with all rubber/plastic components which produces the residue resulting in moving parts sticking or jets blocking up.

I was able to completely strip the Carb down using just this Leatherman.

 

[KTMphil]

Looks like your diagnostics were right, will be interesting when you get back to see if this solves this.

 

[johnnysneds]

I'm 99.9% sure it will work fine now. Most of the areas where the gunk had gathered was where either plastic or rubber components were located. Now with that in mind what is the float needle tip made of, yup it has a viton rubber sleeve/boot on the end. The viscous consistency of this stuff is horrible when you wipe it off with your finger, it would easily stick a needle valve onto it's seat. When I removed the float bowl drain plug this morning there was hardly any fuel that came out indicating it was stuck.
What I find strange, Yamaha indicates in the manual that a max of E10 95 Gasohol can be used and anything more than this will damage components, so I should be ok in Thailand, right . So what exactly is coming out of the pumps?!? another case of tit.....
I mostly use Shell 95 V Power if I can. I'm going to change this routine for another vendor and see if there is any difference.
I know this subject has been discussed many times before elsewhere, but it's only really hearsay of possible performance issues. The proof is above in the pictures. I've had major issues with older carb'd sports bikes years ago in Thailand with the result of Gasohol and now with a new model. Strangely enough never had to clean an Fi bikes fuel system.
I'm trying to find out if there are alternative needle valves available, not sure a brass only needle would do the job.
It's held up well for 3,000 K/m since new, just need to clean the Carb more often I suppose.

 

[LivinLOS]

Why use the v-power gasohol tho ?? Just stick to 91 benzine religiously and avoid the whole drama.

Despite a few people telling me I can use it on some bikes, I just never do, too much risk of damage.

 

[johnnysneds]

A quote from my manual-

"Always use the recommended fuel as stated below.

Premium unleaded only with an octane number of 95 or higher.

Tip:
If knocking or pinging occurs, use a different brand or higher octane rating.

Gasohol
There are two types of Gasohol: gasohol containing ethanol and that containing methanol. Gasohol containing ethanol can be used if the ethanol content does not exceed 10%. Gasohol containing methanol is not recommended by Yamaha because it can cause damage to the fuel system or vehicle performance problems"


I have had to put 91 benzine in before on a motard run and the knocking was clearly evident at lower rpm accelerating out corners. The next fill with Gasohol 95 and the detonation was gone. So 91 is a last resort for me.

 

[johnnysneds]

Why use the v-power gasohol tho ?? Just stick to 91 benzine religiously and avoid the whole drama.

Despite a few people telling me I can use it on some bikes, I just never do, too much risk of damage.

If your bike is designed to run on 95 and your using 91 you risk more damage in the long run than cleaning a Carb now and again.

 

[LivinLOS]

Didn't realize the wr needed 95 or was claimed happy on Gasohol. Me I avoid it at all times.

Would be inclined to run benzine and an octane booster.

There's no where in cm with benzine 95 is there ?

 

[KTMphil]

Didn't realize the wr needed 95 or was claimed happy on Gasohol. Me I avoid it at all times.

Would be inclined to run benzine and an octane booster.

There's no where in cm with benzine 95 is there ?

I don't think there is - Shell V-power is the only choice that's not methanol.

 

[johnnysneds]

Didn't realize the wr needed 95 or was claimed happy on Gasohol. Me I avoid it at all times.

Would be inclined to run benzine and an octane booster.

There's no where in cm with benzine 95 is there ?

The Shell garage on the left going south from the Airport Plaza towards Hang Dong has it. I had the missus ask the manager and have double checked with the pump folk and they are all sure it's 95 Benzine. I drained some from my tank a couple of weeks ago and it has a yellow colour to it. Gasohol is red in colour. I have heard a rumor that different companies colour their fuels differently, not sure about that though.
I'm going to see if I can source my own barrel of race fuel. I have a friend in Bangkok who sourced his own barrel, I think it was rated at 103.

 

[KTMphil]

Didn't realize the wr needed 95 or was claimed happy on Gasohol. Me I avoid it at all times.

Would be inclined to run benzine and an octane booster.

There's no where in cm with benzine 95 is there ?

The Shell garage on the left going south from the Airport Plaza towards Hang Dong has it. I had the missus ask the manager and have double checked with the pump folk and they are all sure it's 95 Benzine. I drained some from my tank a couple of weeks ago and it has a yellow colour to it. Gasohol is red in colour. I have heard a rumor that different companies colour their fuels differently, not sure about that though.
I'm going to see if I can source my own barrel of race fuel. I have a friend in Bangkok who sourced his own barrel, I think it was rated at 103.

Set the missus up with a pump up from the drum outside the house in Hang Dong and we'll all come down and fill up?

 

[johnnysneds]

She's on it....off it......on it....... :

 

[LivinLOS]

Didn't realize the wr needed 95 or was claimed happy on Gasohol. Me I avoid it at all times.

Would be inclined to run benzine and an octane booster.

There's no where in cm with benzine 95 is there ?

The Shell garage on the left going south from the Airport Plaza towards Hang Dong has it. I had the missus ask the manager and have double checked with the pump folk and they are all sure it's 95 Benzine. I drained some from my tank a couple of weeks ago and it has a yellow colour to it. Gasohol is red in colour. I have heard a rumor that different companies colour their fuels differently, not sure about that though.
I'm going to see if I can source my own barrel of race fuel. I have a friend in Bangkok who sourced his own barrel, I think it was rated at 103.

Had this argument a bunch of times. Shell does not sell benzine of any form, any shell employee who tells you they do is either lieing or miss informed. I even emailed shell Thailand who confirmed they do not sell benzine any more and v power is now gasohol. It didn't used to be, they changed it.

All that kicked off as a shell on Phuket, who flat out knew it was gasohol, lied to my brother and filled my fire blade up with it. It even had gasohol in thai but they never changed the English signage. If you asked them they always just lied and said it wasn't, then point to the signs in thai and they would just hang heads in shame or run away. Pissed me off that they would purposefully fuck up a bike just to make a 500b sale.

 

[LivinLOS]

http://www.shell.co.th/home/content/tha ... oad/fuels/

 

[johnnysneds]

I'd have to agree with you, what's confusing is the colour from that station is yellow and not the usual orange/red colour that Gasohol usually is, I wouldn't have thought ethanol would alter the colour of gasoline, so it does appear that some companies are adding dye and others aren't. The price doesn't add up either. Anyway I don't think it's this fuel that's causing the residue as it has to be coming from a fuel that is orange/red colour. Anyway im still going to be hell bent on getting my own barrel, when I go on extended tours I'll just need to live with the fact that there won't be any B95 available and just run with the B91. Octane boosters, now that's something I have to look into.

 

[Brian66]

I have always been strongly against alcohol fuels but my objection is mainly due to the misinformation supplied and accepted by the general public on the so called benefits.
I believe that alcohol does corrode engine aluminium parts and destroys rubber components regardless of the claimed resistance to alcohol that the manufacturers claim for the metals and rubber products. The alcohol resistant rubbers just take longer to be affected.

I am experienced in the refining process of crude oil because I work in the oil industry.

In some developing countries, I have witnessed some very poor refinery procedures and mainly poor refining equipment maintainance.

I wonder two things. What is the condition of the Thailand refineries and what crude oil they use in those refinery.
Thailand has refineries that can process about 1 million barrels per day at full capacity. But most refineries run at about 60% as the shutdown to de coke is a regular part of the maintainance process.

Thailands oil consumption per day was around half a million barrels.
I do not know any figures on the Ethanol refineries.
I believe Thailand would not have to import any refined fuel.

If crude oil is not processed through the numerous refining levels, the many day to day end products that we use and the one we are all more concerned about called petrol can still contain many impurities. Mainly gum and salts.
The best crude oil for making petrol is what is called light sweet crude. It has low sulphur content. Refining this oil produces the cleanest fuel. However, this is the most expensive crude oil to buy. Other crude oils are much cheaper but require an extended refining process with complicated refining equipment that significantly increases the cost. Also the refineries equipment has a much higher shut down time for maintainance due to the residue separated from the crude oil. However, cheap petrol can be produced using this crude oil if the “cracking” part of the refinery process is reduced.

The refining process for Ethanol is basically the same as done to sweet crude oil with one advantage that there are fewer impurities in the base product. Ie sugar or corn. However I wonder once again, how efficiently is this base product refined? If they do not refine it properly, organic material will remain absorbed in the end product.

Supposedly 10% by volume of ethanol is added, but i suspect a much higher percentage is added, to the petrol and delivered to the service stations in Thailand where we pump the fuel into our bikes. I wonder just how good a product is in the delivery truck and also the condition of the pumping stations and the internal condition of the fuel delivery truck.

The crap in Johnnys carby could be gum from poorly refined crude oil or organic matter from the ethanol. The deformed plastic fuel valve parts are definitely due to the Ethanol.

What bugs me most is that to refine 9 liters of petrol costs X amount of dollars.
The same applies to refining 9 liters of Ethanol. Each liter has X amount of cost.
For both the above products the refining figure must be the same or a combination of costs to equal the 37 Baht I use below for 95 Octane. Because that’s what they sell it at per liter.
The Oil Company adds I liter of Ethanol to 9 liters of petrol and price it per liter at whatever the daily rate is. Say 37 Baht for 95 octane. So 10 liters of Gasohol costs 370 Baht.
If they leave out the one liter of Ethanol and add one more liter of petrol, suddenly the price jumps to say, 48 Baht per liter for 95 pure petrol.

So 10 liters of pure petrol cost 480 Baht. That is 110 Baht extra for one liter of Ethanol removed and 1 liter of petrol added. If the Ethanol is worth 37 Baht per liter that one liter of petrol cost us 73 Baht.

Not only are we getting a product we don’t want, someone is fiddling with figures and the general public is being ripped off and hoodwinked

 

[LivinLOS]

What bugs me most is that to refine 9 liters of petrol costs X amount of dollars.
The same applies to refining 9 liters of Ethanol. Each liter has X amount of cost.
For both the above products the refining figure must be the same or a combination of costs to equal the 37 Baht I use below for 95 Octane. Because that’s what they sell it at per liter.
The Oil Company adds I liter of Ethanol to 9 liters of petrol and price it per liter at whatever the daily rate is. Say 37 Baht for 95 octane. So 10 liters of Gasohol costs 370 Baht.
If they leave out the one liter of Ethanol and add one more liter of petrol, suddenly the price jumps to say, 48 Baht per liter for 95 pure petrol.

So 10 liters of pure petrol cost 480 Baht. That is 110 Baht extra for one liter of Ethanol removed and 1 liter of petrol added. If the Ethanol is worth 37 Baht per liter that one liter of petrol cost us 73 Baht.

Not only are we getting a product we don’t want, someone is fiddling with figures and the general public is being ripped off and hoodwinked

This is the nut of it for me.. Its a political 'eco' game. And at the same time no one links to the rising price of foods where farmland is converted to be ethanol producing v food production.

While they play this game theres a huge abundant fuel source (LPG) that literally burnt off in some parts of the worlds oil industry as its value is so low, that can run many vehicles no problem.

All arse about face.. But that doest help Jonnys gunked up carb !!

 

[johnnysneds]

A quick bit of research finds this product. Lucas Octane Booster for around $8 and will treat up to 25 Gallons of fuel.
Its a 30 point octane boost which apparently will raise 91 to around 94. Some of the testimonials I read the guys swear by it, stating that it has turned their vehicle into fuel guzzling speed monster!!!, im sure a-lot of this is psychological. Then there's the issues of getting it into the country or the alternative Thai octane booster :

Here's a video conducted by 5th Gear on octane boosters/additives. All the test showed a decrease in power!
I dont know where folk get the idea that they are going to get more power with higher octane fuel. I was always under the impression that the higher rating was to prevent detonation on higher compression engines. Why don't they mention this in the video? Engine knocking is what im trying to avoid not increase the power output.

 

[Erictheviking]

Acetone will work as an octane booster, I don't know the mixing ratio but I am sure that can be found online and posted here, easy to buy in Thailand and no need for a never ending walk about with import/customs.

 

[johnnysneds]

Acetone will work as an octane booster, I don't know the mixing ratio but I am sure that can be found online and posted here, easy to buy in Thailand and no need for a never ending walk about with import/customs.

Acetone is very corrosive to petrol based seals and metals. This will more than likely rip your fuel system apart, but you are correct in stating it will increase octane.

 

[Erictheviking]

Ouups....

 

[KTMphil]

I was looking into the octane booster situation last year and had some dialog with STP who make a octane booster, in the end looked like it didn't make a material difference to add the stuff (would only boost from 91 to 92 octane).

They maybe able to answer some more questions and were very helpful, their email address is:

stp@consumerreply.com

STP's reply re their octane boosting additive is below:


January 4, 2010

Dear Mr. ................

Thank you for contacting us about your STP Octane Booster. We always appreciate hearing from our consumers.



Unfortunately, neither the gas treatment or the octane booster would raise a 91 octane to a 95 octane. When added to a good fuel blend like Shell or BP the octane booster would only raise a 91 to a 92 octane. You should only use 1 ounce of any fuel additive per gallon of fuel.

Again, thank you for contacting us.

Sincerely,

Patti Copper

Consumer Response Representative

Consumer Services


Did you know: STP stands for Scientifically Tested Petroleum.


There was a thread on thumpertalk somewhere, where a guy was mixing race fuel with low octane fuel and getting the required octane boost.

 

[johnnysneds]

So the conclusion for bikes that require 95 Octane looks like - get your own race fuel in a barrel or live with Gasohol and frequent your fuel system maintenance/cleaning more, or a combination of both

 

[LUFC]

95 Benzene is available in Chiang Rai strangely enough.

You can get it at the Cosmo gas station over the bridge just past the airport on the left hand side.

Its dark blue in colour and costs 50.75 baht per litre (at least it did 2 weeks ago)

I've used it for some time and buy it in 100 litre batches for use offroad riding.

 

[LivinLOS]

Thats the one brand of station that had on Phuket too..

Cosmo stations often tend to be dingy run down setups to.. rusty pumps and the like..

 

[LivinLOS]

I may have been mistaken.. Might be Susco I remember.

http://www.eppo.go.th/retail_prices.html

Apparently select chevron, PT, and Petronas stations do have it.

 

[Mark Rossi]

interesting posts. Thai fuel has been a big problem for me as well. I have found it very hard to trace down what the actual issue is causing residue and sometime slug in the carburetors.
There seems to be a reaction when fuel evaporates from the carb and the internal parts are than exposed to air. I have tried numerous solutions, one was running 95 gasohol then towards the end of the tour use benzine in the last tank of fuel before storing the bikes, but this didnt work.
All I can add is if the fuel is left on and the carb kept wet there seems to be less residue build up and the float valves normally dont stick.
With my previous motocross bike, which I preferred to turn the fuel off, the bikes pilot jet would block if the motorcycle wasn't ridden within 4 days of the previous ride. My new mxer is fuel injected, no problems, no residue?
To me it seems to be a reaction with the fuel and air that causes most of the slug and residue, but not sure if this is 100% of the problem.
Any ideas Brian?

 

[LivinLOS]

I also have had carb issues with 2 bikes (not touch wood yet on my dizzy) and having pulled those carbs multiple times was stunned by the amount of crud in them, when using decent garages, non gasohol religiously, and generally doing everything I could. My mate who ran a workshop spent half his time degunking harley carbs and or repairing gasohol damage (sometimes serious).

I wonder if Thai fuels are badly refined ?? Leaving more gunk in there ??

 

[Brian66]

Mark/ LOS
The crap we see in the carby and fuel tank can be compared to a clean glass of water that you let sit for a long time. The impurities in the water sink to the bottom. A way to remove these impurities is to boil the water at very high temperature and capture the steam.

This would eliminate 99.9 % of the impurities. We usually call that “Distilled water” and this is what is recommended for our radiators and clothes irons.

I could write a long explanation of the refining process but briefly it follows the above boiling process both for crude oil and the glucose, fructose, and sucrose organic products that produce sugar.

Both the above require the liquid from the sugar and crude oil to be boiled and the vapour captured and allow to condense and return to a liquid state. The trick is to boil both at an intense heat so that the impurities also turn into a vapour but they require a much higher temperature to boil.
Therefore the impurities will separate from the hydrocarbons and will return to a liquid and eventually a solid again as they cool.

The crude oil, sugar and impurities all condense from vapour back to a liquid at different temperatures and at different heights in the refining tower. Cooler at the top which is for petrol and gas. Hottest at the bottom which is for Tars and impurities.

Therefore the liquids can be separated. These liquids theoretically should be 100% pure. But as soon as they touch the refinery piping and storage facilities outside the refining tower they are subject to contamination. The fuel could absorb all sorts of particles from the metal and rubber components of the refinery. Ask yourself, how clean and well maintained are the refineries and the handling procedures in Thailand?

Then you add the possible crap in the fuel transport trucks, their pumps then the service stations storage tanks and pumps.
Petrol does not contain oxygen. It is a short chain carbon atom composed of pure Carbon and Hydrogen elements so it is not corrosive because it does not contain oxygen but will absorb and dissolve certain solids but will not absorb water. In chemistry terms this is called “Miscibility” petrol is non-miscible.

Alcohol has both the above elements and also contains Oxygen. Oxygen is highly corrosive and will react with any metal and rubber impurities. Alcohol will absorb and dissolve solids and water and if allowed to sit the impurities will separate just as the clean glass of water will do.

I believe the Ethanol more than the petrol, react’s with these impurities and creates the gum and residue, such as seen in the carby from Johnny’s bike.

But there is also the possibly of the petrol having been refined, transported, stored then pumped to your fuel tank from less than ideal conditions so it is not completely ruled out as a contributor to the gunk problem.
In my opinion the Ethanol is the main contributor of the gunk, hence my long term reluctance to use Gasohol

 

[LivinLOS]

Wow good answer.

Learn something new every day.

 

[monsterman]

Unfortunately many vendors of vehicles that have Viton and other plastic /rubber compnents in the fuel system are finding out that Ethanol in Gasohol does degrade even the supposed Gasohol proof components .and no long term cure in sight look at the problem that Ducati, Acerbis have with plastic fuel tanks warping and even disintegrating due to gasohol .

Gasohol damged the seals in my Nissan cars fuel tank even though its a gasohol compliant model and Nissan say its common for fuel systems to have issues of degraded components due to ethanol.

I flush my bike every now and then with Caltex 95 non gasohol to clean the system but its pricey most of the time i run it on gasohol 95 .

 

[KTMphil]

Prolly had 53,000km of gasahol in my plastic KTM fuel tanks so far - roughly 3,300 liters. I've been aware of all the gasahol issues, but can report that there's been no problems with the plastic tanks.

Unfortunately many vendors of vehicles that have Viton and other plastic /rubber compnents in the fuel system are finding out that Ethanol in Gasohol does degrade even the supposed Gasohol proof components .and no long term cure in sight look at the problem that Ducati, Acerbis have with plastic fuel tanks warping and even disintegrating due to gasohol .

Gasohol damged the seals in my Nissan cars fuel tank even though its a gasohol compliant model and Nissan say its common for fuel systems to have issues of degraded components due to ethanol.

I flush my bike every now and then with Caltex 95 non gasohol to clean the system but its pricey most of the time i run it on gasohol 95 .