Oil level new Honda-CB series

C

Changnoi1

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Location
Nan, Thailand
Bikes
Kawasaki Z250
I am riding a CB500F (bought about 2 months ago, model with "new" engine that does not need valve check at 1000 km anymore). Since the 1000 km service check I have been riding another 3300 km and I "lost" at least 0.8 litre of engine oil. Low oil-level warning or engine over-heating warning lights have never shown any problem. There is no indication of leaking oil and I am sure that the oil-level after check-up was good. As the engine has 2.7 litre oil I think the chance on damage to the engine is minimal.

About 40 km ago I changed my OEM exhaust for a Leo Vince GP Corsa slip-on and Honda thinks that might have something to do with it. It think it is virtually impossible that this has any influence on the engine to make it losing oil. Sure not 0.8 litre in 40 km! When I removed the OEM exhaust it did feel a bit greasy at the inside.

So imo that leaves a few options :
1. Leaking thru the intake (I do not think so but can be checked)
2. Leaking thru the exhaust (could be and will be checked)
3. Leaking thru a gasket to the cooling-fluid (could be and will be checked)
4. Burning due to wrong valve-settings (I think the most likely option and will be checked)

So may I advice owners of new Honda CB-series to check their oil level very regulary and very precisely (as a it is very easy to read the level wrong).
 
That`s a bit scary.

It should be blowing smoke or evidence of it leaking out.

Who changed the oil? did you check/see that it had the full amount after it was done?

I had a KLX 140L in Phuket and after having the valve clearances done and oil changed by the dealer there i took the bike home and checked the oil level myself and found that the dip stick was bone dry!!
I went and got some oil and it took 500ml (1L capacity) to get up to the correct level. So it was only half full.

I did that as the first time i went to a dealer here in LOS i was chatting to a guy who was at the Yamaha dealer arguing that they should replace the engine in his GF`s scoot after returning the bike after a service and draining the oil but forgetting to put oil back in it. She was riding it around and it ground to a stop....no oil in the engine.
 
No evidence of leaking oil, oil change has been done by Honda Big Wing, I did check the oil level when leaving the dealer. I regularly check the oil as I heard about problems about it.

Some smart mechanics drain the bike, put on the new (dry) oil filter and then put in the amount of oil needed if you would NOT change the oil-filter (with the CB500F that would be a difference of 0.2 litre). Be aware that there are people who argue that you do not need to change the oil-filter. But I always oversee service checks of my motorbikes, as I do not trust any mechanic.

I will update this as soon facts are proven. But one is proven .... 0.8 liter oil gone in 3300 km.
 
^ maybe the filter wasn`t full of oil when you checked and it hadn`t filled the top of the engine as yet?

It sounds to me as if they got 2 one litre containers of oil and put them in.

Good luck.
 
For sure agree to see if this was a one off due to confused readings or an ongoing thing.. thats way too much oil to be using without some evidence of it.
 
I have seen the bottles of oil and I have seen the oil remainder, I have seen the oil-level. So I am pretty sure the oil was good when I left the service check. As I am pretty sure the right amount of oil was put in it also does not matter of the filter was pre-filled or not. Actually the mechanic at the Honda dealer are pretty good.
 
This problem has been known for a while many owners worldwide have noticed heavy oil loss and the problem is down to the oil being blown out of the engine breather when under heavy acceleration its a design fault on this model , not fatal if you top up , No oil is being burnt via valves or piston rings or leaking from any seals or gaskets just blown out the breather at high speed .i have seen 3 CB500f in pattaya with this issue and its been reported in UK , Honda have not issued any updates for a fix??
 
@Monsterman ..... OK if I am a racer-type on the motorbike I could imagine this happening (but would you not see that also at the crankcase breather tube?) But I normally ride between 100 - 120 km/u, with a occasionally 130 -140 km/h. I think I have never been faster with this bike as 140 km/h. Although I must say that someone at AP Honda also said that this problem could be because of high rev ... my answer was "Then you should not sell this as a motorbike and give me my money back".

But although there is not yet a sollution I must say that Honda is giving very good service. Today a mechanic of Honda did come to my house to check the motor. The first thing he checked was leaking of the o-ring/sealing behind the front sprocket. All clean, no leaking. He checked the draining bolt and the oil-filter. But he was surprised to see the dirt on the OEM exhaust.

He did also added another 100cc of oil, so now there has been added 0.9 litre of oil. And now the level is 3/4, what I think is normal. Tomorrow the motorbike will be picked up by AP Honda for a full check (opening the all engine).
 
Blowing oil out the breather is something from the old Brit bike era.

I`d be horrified/very disappointed if that is what`s happening from this new Honda model.

Hopefully AP Honda will track down the cause.
 
While I wouldnt be happy to hear its a design issue.. I would be a lot happier than thinking that I had an engine that was burning the oil in some way through wear or breakage..

Top ups and keeping a mental note isnt that tough ??
 
In older days a breather,oil catch bottle wasn`t uncommon for such issues. The aim being to stop oil getting onto the bike and more importantly the back tyre,being quite undesirable especially at high speed. I`d expect Honda to be way past those type of issues unless it`s a specific problem due to design or some units of this model.

Let`s see what they come up with re the cause.
 
@LivinLos Top ups and keeping a mental note is what I did 35 years ago with my Yamaha FS1

@Loop I agree with you, this should not be a problem

Personally I think there are not that much ways out for engine oil. Personally I think it is related to the change that has been made in the engine to make the the first service-check without the valve-checking.
 
My CB500 F has covered 4500 km in the UK and the oil level hasnt dropped at all, I bought it new in july and the valves were checked at 1000 km
 
Let me get this straight, you have done some 4500 Km's running in this bike?
And added some 30% of the total oil capacity to top up during this run in period???

Based on that you will have Honda "opening the all engine"????
I would be more worried about this operation/investigation than about this moderate run-in oil consumption........
 
@ Brake034 .... 0.9 liter (of 2.7 litre) after 3300 km of riding (at 1000 km oil has been replaced) you call "moderate run-in oil consumption"?

Not in my book .... I had a few brand new bikes and NEVER had to top-up oil.
And what is the alternative ... have always a can of engine oil with you? He it is not a HD;)
 
Changnoi1 said:
@LivinLos Top ups and keeping a mental note is what I did 35 years ago with my Yamaha FS1
Click to expand...

Ohh dont get me wrong.. I am not saying you should be happy about it !! Far from it..

Only I would be a lot more unhappy to think I had a fully defective engine and trying to get a Thai company to stand behind it and replace it.
 
Hahaha well it is the same Thai company that did built the motorbike in the first place, so I do not worry about that much more as buying a Thai-built motorbike.
 
Its not the ability to replace an engine.. Its getting after sales service and warranty work done.

My experiences in asia have leaned very heavily to the side that all responsibility and consumer protection ends, the moment you have paid.. Thats for items large and small with huge corporations or small operators. So much so my wife seems constantly surprised I even try to ask for it, Thais seems to expect that a sellers responsibility is over once paid.

I am sure Honda would be at the better end of that scale. But just too many bad experiences to want to test (or wait on) warranty claims.
 
Actually Honda Big Wing & AP Honda are doing a great job until now. Probably also thanks to the manager of HBW Udon. Monday I reported the problem, Tuesday a mechanic came to have a look (120km from Udon) and as we speak the bike is on his way to Bangkok. As promised testing would not take more as a week. I would almost have the feeling there is more to it as I am told.

So we will see .... but a bit sad as I just planned a trip this week and was planning to do another trip at the end of this month.
 
So back to the facts again.

My motorbike is at the moment at Honda Big Wing Udon Thani, although promised that it would be transported to Bangkok asap. But HBW Udon says that AP Honda wants to do them some test first.

1. First test is putting back the OEM exhaust and putting a white paper behind the exhaust. According to AP Honda "normal"
2. Second test a 100 km test ride .... what resulted in a "noticeable lose of oil". But according to AP Honda with in the specifications "normal".
3. Third test is now being done (on my request) : Valve-settings. But no result yet.

I also requested to check the cool-fluid. As theoretically oil could leak into the cool-fluid and you would never notice the leaking

So losing 900cc oil in 3300 is also normal? That is a question I did ask today to a vary of people of AP Honda resulting in the promise that next week people from the Honda factory will come to Khon Kaen to install some new parts. Re-inversing the change made to prevent the 1000 km valve-settings check?


P.s. The praise of service seems to be a bit too early as at the moment I am feeling that they are actually doing everything to prevent a "Toyota-like" recall, because there is for sure soemthing wrong and I have the feeling that they actually know it.
 
Changnoi1 said:
2. Second test a 100 km test ride .... what resulted in a "noticeable lose of oil". But according to AP Honda with in the specifications "normal".
Click to expand...

That`s a bit alarming that they`d call a noticeable loss of oil after 100k`s "normal"?

My old VFR has done 40k k`s and doesn`t need to be topped up in between regular 6k k`s oil changes.

I don`t even know if they have a visible breather tube coming out of the engine these days as it`s all hidden away? i`d be taping a plastic bottle to it and taking it for a 100k ride and check it after as you seem to have eliminated burning of it or leakage elsewhere?
 
Loop said:
That`s a bit alarming that they`d call a noticeable loss of oil after 100k`s "normal"?
Click to expand...

Exactly my point on accepting responsibility when it has financial implications...
 
The current status is that my motorbike is still at Honda Big Wing Udon Thani (and looking at Bangkok I think that is a good idea).

New parts have been ordered and will arrive today (Monday)
A mechanic from Honda Factory will come to Udon Thani to replace the parts (complete cylinder head & cover) and test the motorbike

If all goes well I will be rolling again next weekend. What I have learned is that AP Honda & Honda Big Wing Bangkok are very poor in communicating with customers (to say it polite) and that the Honda Call Center is just like any call center total useless and that contacting AP Honda be email is totally useless (both in Thai or English).

What I also have learned that there are at least 2 known reasons for leaking oil at SOME of the engines of the new CB500 series
1. At the rocker shaft (due to not correctly fastening the cover of the rocker shaft)
2. At the oil seal behind the front sprocket (damaged at installation?)
Honda is aware of this problems and will check all bikes for it at pre-sale, both problems are easy to fix.
 
Thanks for documenting this saga so well for those of us interested in the CB500 series Chiangnoi1.

I'm one who is surprised and alarmed to learn that this problem has been allowed to progress through to the customer.
Sadly, I'm not surprised to learn of the lousy 'communications' with APHonda and their 'Call Center'. Very unprofessional; almost contemptuous.
 
Changnoi1 said:
2. At the oil seal behind the front sprocket (damaged at installation?)
Click to expand...

Those leaks are great for keeping a chain lubed but make a hell of a mess.

Hopefully this is not the start of lengthy ongoing problems with your bike.

Good luck.
 
The current status is that the problem is probably solved by replacement of the Cylinder-head-cover. My bike will be brought home today.

The cylinder-head-cover is not only a cover but also a part of the emission-control system where 2 small "pipe's" go thru the cylinder-head area and connect to the cylinder-head-cover. Out-of-specifications made cylinder-head-cover makes oil leaking and be pressed out of the exhaust-pipe (could as well be pressed out of the intake). In these 2 small "pipe's" was clearly visible a build up of "dust" (sorry do not know how to call it). Although I never really did see smoke from the exhaust pipe, but now comparing my exhaust pipe with that of other used CB500X my exhaust was very dirty inside. Yes, I did oversee the work done. Interesting to see how much work it is to get to the cylinder-head-cover. Same work for the Valve-settings check. And even more work to get to the air-filter. Valve-settings have been checked and within spec's. Spark plugs were a little bit dirty. Air-filter was clean as was the air-intake section. Oil has been replaced by standard oil (10w30 4T)

And indeed it seems that this problem has been reported also with CBR250 (although AP Honda says "Don't know"). So although the problem is probably solved I am very disappointment-ed in the way Honda Big Wing and AP Honda have handled this. In first case totally ignoring that there is a problem and saying it is with in spec. Well the spec's are a "Red-line test" of 20 hours (let the bike run 8500 rpm for 20 hours and then check the oil consumption) what only shows you should not ride a 24-hours "Le Mans" with a CB500 but of course it is in no relation to normal riding style. The second excuse was the aftermarket muffler, but after I told them I only used that 50 km that was never mentioned again. And another excuse was riding many hours in 1 day (long distance). But my biggest disappointment is the fact that they try to total block customers to get in contact with AP Honda (Honda Big Wing = AP Honda = Honda Factory Thailand).
 
Update :
I did not have much time to make a long trip, so until now I only made 500 km (incl. 1 250 km trip to/from Udon). And until now it all seems OK, I do not see any lose of oil. I do now check oil-level every time before and after a ride. Make photos of the oil-level and the odo-meter. Exhaust looks much cleaner also.

One thing I notice that now after 500 km the oil is still clean, after the 1000 km service check the new oil was totally black after a ride from Udon to Loei. That should have been a indicator that there was something wrong?

OK it is cold now at night and my bike stands outside. But I have never noticed on any bike before the amount of water of condensation. The OEM muffler (that is still on the bike now) has a small hole at the connection point to the pipe. And when starting the bike there is actually quit a lot of water coming from it. Clean water (yes it is water not oil or gasoline). Will have to make a small hole in the Leo Vince GP muffler also, as I remember indeed my exhaust from my first motorbike rusting away at that point.

Hopefully I will have some chance of riding soon.
 
Sounds like it may have been solved.

So the oil may have been leaking into the pipe and blowing out of the exhaust and not burning? certainly a trap and well worth keeping an eye on for anyone with that model.
 
Let's hope the problem is solved with the current modificaton.
 
It would have been great if the previous post was the end of the "oil consuming CB500F" story. But it is not!
After that the Cylinder-Head-Cover was replaced I made a 2 day trip covering about 750 km, with a average highway speed of 100 km/h and once a short blast to 140 km/h While starting my second day I could already see that the oil-level had gone down. Coming home I could see that the oil-level was just barely above minimum. I would guess I had lost about 400 - 500 cc of engine oil in a 750 km trip. Bloody hell, if I want to ride to Chiang Mai I will have to take a can of oil with me.

So it is officially now! Honda Big Wing Udon Thani has bought back my Honda CB500F. A engine that was consuming about 500 cc of oil in 750 km was not acceptable to me. Although AP Honda Thailand says it is normal. And that even after replacing the Cylinder-Head-Cover. To me it seems not a assembly error or out-of-specification production. To me it seems a design flaw in the emission control system, as I have spoken to at least 3 other riders of a CB500F/X and all needed to top-up the engine oil. The amount of needed top-up may vary on the bike and riding style, but it is my impression that probably all CB500F/X motorbikes are consuming oil in a not normal way. Motorbike-less again ... what to buy now?

In the next few days I will set-up a page with full report (with photos) about this problem to warn others for what I consider to be a "faulty product" of AP Honda Thailand.
 
Changnoi1, thanks for documenting this issue so thoroughly.

I admit to being surprised that Honda should have such an issue with a modern bike of theirs.
Not surprised by their attitude though!

Last week I mentioned the problem to the Manager at Big Wing Chiang Mai.
He denied any knowledge of it.

As for 'what to buy now' …. V-Strom 650?
 
So did you get warranty return or you have to lose out ??
 
Warranty return? Hahahahaha. You can use that warranty paper when you go to the toilet.

When if costs money it is "F*** you customer".

Personally I think AP Honda Thailand has something on its hands that should be a world-wide recall. I talked to some other people who also say they have to top-up their bike. I read the problem on web-sites from the UK and USA. Some said "it is a design flaw and at higher RPM's the oil is pressed in the cylinder". I did never believe it and thought that would be riders testing the red-line. But I am starting to believe this. The first few 100 km after the replacement of the Cylinder-Head-Cover all did seem fine. Then I started to ride normal on the highway (100 - 120 km/h) and sometimes max. 140km/h. Still never at the red-line, maybe when over taking for a few seconds. But starting from that moment the problems started again.

So if you use the bike as a city commuter, do not look to the oil and just do your service checks (replace oil) then you might not notice any problems. But then you might as well buy a scooter.

As Honda is communicating all their known problems I am sure all dealers will know this problem. The dealer in Udon Thani had 2 other bikes with the same problem. But they probably convinced the customers that it is normal or that they ride wrong.
 
I hope you did not loose too much money on this issue Changnoi1!

Many rental companies in Thailand have bought the CB series bikes, these rental bikes are not used carefully and often get pushed to their limit.
I am curious to hear if the rental companies experience such heavy oil usage at all of their CB series bikes also or if it is only some bikes of this series that suffer from this problem?
Tolerances is an issue that many Asian (Chinese) sub suppliers do not have fully under control, if it is a tolerance issue that would proof some CB's have this issue and others do not.
 
Seem to remember some recent Triumphs sufering from huge oil consumption, up to a litre every thousand miles or so. According to Triumph it was 'within specification'.
I have an old Italian car and the manual specifies that the oil should be checked every 500 miles - and it needs it, at around 1litre per thousand miles.
 
For people considering to buy a Honda CB500F / CB500X / CBR500R please have a look at Oil consuming Honda CB500F

Here you can find a full report with photos about what happened to me and the Honda CB500F that I did buy from Honda Big Wing in Udon Thani.


P.s. I heard from 1 rental company from Chiang Mai that they have the same problem with ALL their brand new CB500 bikes. But they just consider that a part of the costs.
 
What puzzles me about this thread is ……. "Where are the other CB500X/F/R riders and what do they have to say?"
Maybe 'nothing to say' means 'no problem to report'?
 
Maybe "nothing to say" means "I am going to sell my bike" or "I do not write on motorbike forums"?

As said I did speak with one guy who said he needed to top-up the oil of his CB500X but he did not have any problem with it. Maybe that is because Honda is saying it is normal and is not offering an solution?

For me this is the end of the story, although I hope that it will fire back on AP Honda and Honda Big Wing.
 
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